Jeremiah 8:8 (New International Version)

8 ” ‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

It seems to me that you may have over-generalized my position in this post. I didn’t state that a “Western Christian cannot have correct biblical interpretation.” I agree with you that such a position is “weak”…if not simply absurd. My opinion in this post is “I believe that Calvin’s systematic theology”, as it pertains to predestination, “goes astry” because it is adversly influenced by Greek thought rather than Hebrew thought.

We agree that “Origen and Augustine were not perfect” and “they were not 100% flawed in their thinking because they were from the West”. My position is simply that a) Calvin was greatly influenced by these men and b) that influence lead to an erroneous doctrine of election/predestination. I think that Calvin might have come up with a different articulation of the doctrine had he been more influenced by Hebrew thought than Greek thought. Admittedly, this is speculation on my part.

As for your three reminders:

1) agreed

2) agreed that Jesus was chosen by God to atone for man’s sins which results in God’s glory

3)…uh…agreed that God is perfectly moral. It seems that you assume that Calvin’s doctrine of election/predestination is correct. Obviously, I disagree. It also seems that you equate disagreeing with Calvin’s doctrine with disagreeing with God, ergo making “ourselves out to be God”. Definitely don’t agree.

Thanks for coming by.

I say that to note that I HAVE NOT listened to the sermon yet so my view may change, probably not, but may.

I say humbly, this is probably the worst argument I’ve ever herd against Calvinism. To say that someone who is a western christian cannot have correct biblical interpretation simply because of their pagan background (before they became believers) is preposterous. To say that ignores the guidance of the Holy Spirit to ALL believers. Origen and Augustine were not perfect and had their many flaws, but they were not 100% flawed in their thinking because they were from the West.

I’m sorry but that is just a very weak argument.

But I do agree that paul was in the middle ground. The bible is silent on supporting either extreme of this debate. But a few things must be remembered when we think about it.

1) God is sovereign, including that he knows everything that was, that is, and that will be, he is not surprised by any of our decisions.

2) God chose to glorify himself in the most excellent way, through the atonement of man through Jesus.

3) we CANNOT make the argument that “it isn’t fair” when we consider election (which I think when this whole debate boils down, this is left in the pot). perfect morality is synonymous with God’s character, and if we say that we know what is moral more-so than he does, we make ourselves out to be God and sin.

Based on the nature of your questions, I’m guessing that your views are much more Calvinistic than mine. If that’s true, then I’m fairly confident that I can’t show you adequate Scripture to persuade you to share my opinion on the fate of the Egyptian babies.

I appreciate you stopping by.

Where in scripture do you get this idea? Seriously, can you please show me why you can assert their eternal salvation, despite being outside the community of Israel both physically and spiritually?

If every first born in america including yours were to be ’smited’ by god, would you accept a churches or self proclaimed prophet’s reasoning that god had ‘just cause due to the sins of either the whole US or even just a single biligerent george w bush?

If so then I want no part in such a religion and I hope that such a god does not exist.

The age in which these ‘jew war-cry’ stories were penned was a barbaric age where threat of grissly death, prejudice, rape, slavery, genocide, murder, infantcide, sacrifice, ignorance and mystical beliefs reigned supreme. The effort of modern christians to square this circle is verging on the riddiculous.

The thought of 2 educated adults in the 21st century polluting their childrens minds sends shivers down my back.

Please sir, I know you won’t post this but I have but one request: I have no problem with you personally believing in such ancient bed time stories however illogical I believe them to be and despite the obvious pain they allow humans to inflict on each other daily AND despite the continuation of a fear and threat based reward system that further divides us and them in line with the american ethos.. but please please please allow your children to come to a view on such a personal issue all by themselves without interference.

Thank you.